About the Event
Strong product leadership impacts every part of the organization, and can help foster an overall culture of innovation and growth. But if you’re a product leader, you understand how difficult it is to find avenues for continuous growth and learning for both yourself, and your team.
On Wednesday, February 9th, we discussed the unique challenges and opportunities product leaders face on the path towards growth, with three industry leaders, Jeannie Yang, SVP of Product at SmartNews Inc., Katherine Fischer VP of Product at 1stDibs, and Lucy Huang, VP of Product at Storyblocks.
In the clip below, Katherine Fischer describes her north star metric for Product Leaders — prioritizing their impact, over their output.
While Lucy Huang discusses the ways she goes about empowering the product teams she leads. Through her use of the the RACI model, Lucy breaks down how educating the other parts of the organization is the best way to align them to the product team’s objectives.
Watch the full video below for more insights from all three Product Leaders.
Watch the Full Video
About Our Speakers:
Jeannie Yang has been creating successful products at the forefront of social, mobile and media for two decades. At Smule, she led product strategy and scaled the platform to over $100 million run rate, increasing users from 50K users to a community of 50M people. Today, she leads Product at SmartNews Inc, the first unicorn news startup since 2015.
Katherine Fischer. Until recently, Katherine was the VP of Product at 1stDibs, a global marketplace for one-of-a-kind, luxury goods. Over her 7 year tenure, Katherine held various leadership roles focused on the seller experience, logistics, e-commerce enablement, trust and safety and the iOS app.
In Katherine’s next role she will lead the Product team at Made Renovation. Similar to what Opendoor has done for home buying or Carvana for car buying, Made is creating an e-commerce-like experience for home renovations, bringing this $400B market online.
Prior to 1stDibs, Katherine held product roles at growth stage companies (SinglePlatform and Seamless/GrubHub), launching numerous key products.
Lucy Huang is a product leader with experience across enterprise and consumer businesses. Lucy has held product leadership roles at companies ranging in growth from $0-$70M+ in ARR such Storyblocks, CB Insights, and Marketing Evolution. Lucy is passionate about building great teams and sharing her lessons learned with the product community.
About our Moderator:
Anish Shah is the CEO & Founder of executive search agency Ruckus. Anish has worked in-house in Growth roles at Snapfish and Getable. He started Bring Ruckus as a Growth consultancy 11 years ago working with 40+ clients, then re-focused his firm on executive recruiting for Growth leaders.
Read the full transcript
Kayci Baldwin (00:02):
Amazing. Let’s get started. Welcome everybody to Leveling Up as a Product Leader. This week’s Executive Roundtable with bring Ruckus. My name is Kayci Baldwin. I am the Director of Marketing and Platform at Ruckus, and I’m really excited to be here. Ally, if you can take me to the next slide, as you may have just heard this webinar is being recorded. Please feel free to submit any additional questions that you might have for the panelists in the Q and A, if we can get to them, we certainly will do our best. And, in terms of the recording, that will be sent out to everyone who registered for today’s event, as well as, uploaded to our YouTube. And on our website, you can always find all of our past events under, community and past events on our site. With that, I will pass the microphone over to our founder and CEO, Anish Shah, who will moderate today’s conversation.
Anish Shah (00:56):
Thanks, everybody. Just quick introductions. So my background was working in marketing and growth for different companies for about a decade and then started an executive recruiting firm. And so now we’re a team of 20 we’re recruiting for a wide variety of searches across, quite a few different companies, both sort of large and small.
Jeannie Yang (01:17):
Cool. Let me jump in. Hi, I’m Jeannie Yang. My background’s in actually engineering, but I’ve been in product for a while. Currently I’m in a company called SmartNews. We deliver quality information to people over the world. We’re located in Japan, us, China as well. And so, currently lead to product division. We have design data science, product management operations across the board here.
Katherine Fischer (01:44):
Hi everyone. I’m Katherine Fischer, for the last seven and a half years, I’ve been at 1st Dibs, working on product, which is an online marketplace for one of a kind luxury goods. You can buy furniture, art, fashion, and jewelry, very high end, items from dealers all over the world. So it’s a two-sided marketplace, it’s global our buyers and sellers all over the world, and at a high price point. So my last day there actually was last week. And so I’m going through a little bit of fun employment for a short period of time. And then I’ll be starting as, the VP product at Made Renovation, to lead their product team. So they are, looking to turn the messy home renovation process into a seamless e-commerce experience. So, it’s a small product team now, but we’ll be growing that team out and should be really interesting. There’s also two-sided marketplace with general contractors and designers. So anyway, excited to be here.
Lucy Huang (02:42):
And hello, I’m Lucy Huang. I’m a product leader here in and in New York city. Today I’m growing, I’m focused on growing Story Blocks, by leading the product team. So product team here means product management, design growth, as well as UX research. So with story blocks, we are, first, rapid video creation platform. So what it means is we help creators, both enterprises and consumer side to be able to create your videos. So that means offering everything from content to as well as a video editor to help you create your stories very quickly. So yeah, so I love the growth stage company have been doing product at growth stage companies for a while now. Started out my career actually in finance. So, everything I would say, product is one of those roles, right. Everything you do actually helps you out, to give you a more holistic view.
Anish Shah (03:33):
Absolutely. And so when all of you RSVP’d for the event, you were asked to put in a question, that you’d like to ask our experts today, or like to have asked of our experts today. And so we curated, the most interesting of the questions, right here, which we’ll go through. and so the first one that we thought was pretty interesting was, you know, what is kind of the, the big thing that you want to be measured on as a product leader. And this is interesting, cause it can go in a lot of different directions and every organization maybe might think about measuring it, in, in a different way. So, you know, number one, what do you think would be kind of like the, the north star for, for great product leader. And then also have you seen different organizations measure it in different ways and had me sort of like pros and cons with the different ways they think about it?
Katherine Fischer (04:27):
I can start. I’ll take that one. I think just very, very high level. I think one of the most important things from product is to just make sure you’re measured on your impact versus your output. So I think it’s really, really easy to get into the world of, you know, releasing features, releasing bug fixes. You can do a lot and you can keep engineers really busy, and do cool things. But at the end of the day, it’s really about how does the product team impact the business as a whole, as a whole. So the bottom line, how are you driving sales? How are you lowering costs? How are you driving more users, whatever it is. And there’s a lot of things, you know, metrics that, you know, bubble up to that, but ultimately it’s, really your impact on sort of the health and growth of the business. While also being mindful that you can’t only control so much, right. There’s a lot of other influences about in the impact it’s marketing, it’s operations, et cetera. But, yeah, that’s, that’s very, very high level answer just to kick it off, I guess.
Anish Shah (05:35):
That’s great because you can spin your wheels doing a bunch of tasks, but, is it actually driving whatever your goal is? And have you seen even what that goal is be a little bit different with different companies you mentioned impact in some organizations, is that more revenue, some organizations, is it more, just a better, more kind of engaging product there, different ways that you can sort of measure that.
Lucy Huang (06:00):
I can, I can take a crack at that as well. I think it depends on the type of business. So for example, there, if it’s more of an enterprise/SaaS type of business versus like a self-serve, so if it’s more of an enterprise, SaaS type of business, then I would say products impact is sort of a little bit of a, like a dotted line. So very much agree with Katherine. You want to be measured on impact, and that’s both, customer impact as well as business impact. So in an enterprise business where you do go through kind of product marketing and sales folks, you know, you can’t go out there as a product manager or a product leader. You don’t go out there and kind of sell the product yourself. So a lot of the times what you want to do is actually thinking about customer usage on that, on the SaaS product, which ultimately goes into retention, retention, and also sometimes acquisition as well. So that’s one piece, depending on the type of business. And I would say on the self-serve type of business, and again, depending on which area of product that you work on, that it’s less of a dotted line. Sometimes you can draw a bit more of a straight line in terms of what, what the product team is doing, versus, you know, how much are we actually, how much are we contributing to acquisition? How much are we contributing to retention?
Jeannie Yang (07:11):
Yeah, I cannot agree more with what Katherine and Lucy said. So I don’t have much to add to that, but maybe something personally for me, I think over the years, as I’ve learned is also as you’re doing this, I think this is related to the question that chat, you know, how does that differ between probably versus ic see actually for it’s also for me, like my team members growth and their impact is ultimately it’s how all, all the individual members, teams impact add up to the overall impact. So I think some of the most gratifying things is seeing people grow and achieve their successes because ultimately their success becomes your success. So, it’s gratifying. Like how are they growing? How are they growing us from product to different aspects of their career is one of the most gratifying things. And personally, I, you know, how do I strive to, sort of like having a team be more self sufficient without me. So I’m able to move on to different parts as, as well. And so that’s actually, at least for me personally, something now to, as, as I’ve learned and grow those as aspects, right? So it’s impact of the team members, but it’s also their personal growth and the career growth. That’s actually one of the most gratifying because they’ll achieve that through making impact in, in the product.
Katherine Fischer (08:24):
I think you can kind of, like ladder it up, right. Going back to the question in the chat where it’s like as a product lead or just a product leader, you know, you’re, you’re probably setting goals at a really high level, right? It’s going to be again, we need new users, we need traffic, we need, X percent conversion, right. You’re going to have some really lofty big goals and there’s probably going to be a several teams. Like they have smaller individual goals that ladder up to those bigger goals. And so those individual contributors and those teams, you know, theirs might be really just focused on traffic or, a very specific part of a funnel or whatnot. But then if you, you know, add those up together, then the team and all those teams together can then reach those like larger business goals together.
Anish Shah (09:17):
Makes a lot of sense. And if there was, if there was some way to gauge, like have I really grown, grown the team reporting into me, and, and made them, you know, better product managers, which overall helped the organization, would that be maybe via like promotions or via their output in metrics improving over time? Has there been anything that’s been sort of interesting, that you’ve been like, okay, this makes me feel like I I’ve done a really good job and I’m able to actually communicate this upward that, you know, I’ve done a good job of, of growing the, the internal product management team, reporting into me. And I’ve been able to communicate that because of business and this to, to show for it.
Jeannie Yang (09:56):
I think that’s definitely the most obvious and direct way to, to see how that happens. I think personally for me is when I have a team member now start pushing back on me, questioning me on everything. And then they’re taking it like, great. You go to that meeting and you tell, and you feel that, but obviously the best impact is actually giving that recognition that reward. But it’s either through promotions, it’s either through how they have discovered. Maybe it’s not in this company, because I do think people grow and they find new opportunities as also incredibly gratifying when people see and they take on bigger opportunities or different aspects of it. So, there’s definitely the very direct one Anish to show that impact that they’re recognized through whatever reward or mechanism, promotion, et cetera. But I think, always targeting that promotion make, make people very narrow focus. So I think the thing is like, how are they actually taking on more of best scope? How are they actually showing that presence and being in more of those meetings with executive leadership, giving that opportunity and they’re directly able to push back in a convincing way as well. I think shows really signs of growth and then also whatever opportunities are pushing for next is, is always, really gratifying to see.
Lucy Huang (11:08):
I just want to double down on Jeannie’s point in the sense of growing people. So I like, I love what you said here and I think some of it, when we think about outcomes, so as a product leader, I think you’re people, they’re early indicators. So then they’re lacking indicators. I’m a pretty, fairly quantitative product leader as maybe I’m, as I’m showing. So some of the early indicators to your, to your point Jeannie, it’s like being able to push back, being able to literally take a load off of your shoulders because you have coached, your team enough that your team can now run really autonomously and have that critical thinking. And because of that as a product leader, now you’re freed up to address other areas of the business as well as taking on more. So you’re seeing that as early indicators. And then I would say some of the lagging indicators is the business results. If you’re in more of a, kind of an e-commerce type of business, like, like Katherine is saying like, you can literally see traffic going up or like funnel conversion, that could be a part of it. Or any sort of customer impact. I think that’s more of a lagging indicator in terms of your impact on your people and promotion is also a lagging indicator to that.
Jeannie Yang (12:10):
Well, you just said way better, Lucy. Thank you. That was great.
Anish Shah (12:17):
Both were great. And, and thanks a lot for digging into that. Let’s jump into the next question. This is really interesting. So maybe biggest might be a little bit too hard to figure out, but what are some, different challenges that, that you faced in managing engineering and, stakeholder expectations. And I I’d imagine since you’re, you’re wedged between so many different teams that the different stakeholders want completely different things at times, where the engineers might want one, one thing, the business leads might want one thing, the marketers want another thing. And so any tips or tricks that you’ve learned and trying to move forward, and figure out how to make, make it make all ends kind of successful?
Katherine Fischer (13:03):
Well, I think something that I’ve been thinking a lot about in the last, I don’t know, six months in terms of managing stakeholder expectations has been around managing, thinking about managing up, sort of the impact of newer features and MVP. So what sometimes has been an issue I’ve seen in the past is, you know, you make this case for a product and you’re going to build this thing and you’re going to invest some time. And there’s a lot like most products they’re not, they’re not going to have an impact immediately, right? It’s not just going to be like overnight cool. We’ve hit our goal. Like we’re good to go, right. There’s just sort of, there’s a, there’s infrastructure that maybe has to get in place and there’s an MVP. And then you build on top of that, right. To keep building and building. And I’ve, I’ve seen in the past sometimes, you know, people being like, ‘wait, how come we’re doing more work on this?’
Katherine Fischer (13:54):
How come this is taking longer? You know, oh, I thought we were going to be done. No, we were really beta testing, you know, something. And then once we proved that out, okay, now we’re going to go ahead and move forward with this for other verticals or whatnot. So, something that I’ve learned a lot over the last again, I say kind of six to 12 months, just with some projects I was working on was, just how important it is particularly with, you know, managing up is being really explicit about, especially things that take a little bit longer, you know, what the outcome will be and what the impact will be on the bottom line, at certain points, because again, it might not hit immediately. And so everyone’s really clear on the investment too, that you’re going to have to make, this is you’re going to need people working on something, you know, for a period of time. So anyway, that’s something that, you know, I I’ve been thinking about a lot.
Anish Shah (14:49):
Makes a lot of sense, sounds very foundational as well, right? Versus just like, Hey, we’re going to put this out in the world. You know, here’s some features, here’s, here’s some sticky things that we’re going to do that are going to make people enjoy our product. It’s like, no, there’s, there’s a lot of investment that goes into that. And oftentimes it may not be communicated well, how much investment goes through, especially when someone maybe at the board level or, or the executive level just says, Hey, I want this, can we just like, turn this around and turn it on in a couple weeks?
Katherine Fischer (15:13):
And there’s a lot of conversations that happen. I think we all know there’s you, you’re not every meeting. You’re not going to have every single person in that meeting. There’s a lot of smaller meetings with different people and there’s different information that people get. And, you know, finance has a very different perspective than marketing than operations, and so pulling that together, so that all of those expectations are aligned, is, is, is really important.
Anish Shah (15:41):
Makes a lot of sense.
Jeannie Yang (15:43):
That’s I I’d love to know Katherine, if you have any framework from managing that timeline of expectations. Cause that’s definitely like a constant.
Katherine Fischer (15:53):
I think just, just trying to be explicit about like, particularly like what the outcome will be like, ‘Great. We’re going to do this thing and making sure really at the exact level that you’re very clear of, we’re going to do this thing, but it’s a milestone, you know, that’ll hit in three months.’ What is, again, that output and then making very clear, they’re like literally saying the words, we will need more investment of X amount or X amount of time. We think by X date, is it next year or whatever our goal is to get to this, but just being, I think sometimes those can get lost in, more casual conversations and you don’t always say those things explicitly. So just taking the time to be very explicit about, again, what the impact will be on the business at what point. So everyone understands what they’re getting into yeah,
Jeannie Yang (16:46):
Anish Shah (16:49):
No, no, no, no. I was just going to agree.
Jeannie Yang (16:50):
I, I was going to add on to that and I think some of the things that I personally do and maybe also see teams is with product teams, is that, to avoid adding… because you know, I think we’re all problem solvers and we want to try to solve the problems and take all the feedback and say, can we get the solution that addresses all your needs and wants? And it ends up being this compromised solution with a little bit of that and then loses that it’s almost like adding it towards the end. And so really kind of making very clear what, what makes it and what doesn’t and actually being explicit as you shared, Katherine. But I think that’s also just a desire to want to like take all this feedback. We could address it. We could find find this anyway, and it comes out, oh, we, you know, it’s okay to not address all the feedback, but as long as we’re clear what the expectation of the milestones or what it is now, what it might, will be in the future. I think that’s super, super helpful.
Anish Shah (17:44):
That’s a really interesting point because I think, you know, when you’re collaborating, especially as your organization gets larger and larger, as, as you mentioned, Jeannie, like everything eventually gets to be a compromised because you’re trying to, you’re trying to merge a bunch of different ideas and you don’t want anyone to feel like they’re, they’re being undervalued, particularly if they’re sitting at a top an organization, but you might know you’re starting to go in that direction where you’re getting this sort of like Frankenstein solution, in order to please everybody, which isn’t what you want. Right? As all of you want to make the best products possible that, that, that hit. Just basically hit hit goals and, and, and sort of, you know, fulfill a vision. So when you see something kind of going in that direction, have you sort of, you know, had any experiences or anecdotes of saying, well, Hey look, this is, this is now just starting to get to be, a little bit of what everybody wants versus something that was actually going to be really exciting based on the original vision.
Anish Shah (18:38):
Have you ever had to set people down and tell them we’re going to have to pull some of what you want out here, pull some of that. And, and, you know, we just have to go with what I want, because I sort of came up with this vision or I’m the one in charge of executing this vision. Is there a good way to sort of like really word that, and, and communicate it? And is there a process around that? Because it is definitely an issue that I’ve, I’ve even on the marketing side, I’ve come across, pretty regularly.
Jeannie Yang (19:02):
Yeah, I think this occurs, and maybe it’s almost like a regular clean up check that’s needed kind go back to that initial goal, that vision that as Katherine said, kind of maybe reassess, could we go through all the line items here or features and see which one does apply and actually sitting the stakeholders down to it’s not necessarily about not doing it. It’s just not, maybe not now. And maybe like, what is, does it align to this vision now? I think that’s, that’s one path that, you know, you just have to kind of do that regular check with the team and with the stakeholders. Are we still on that track? What got added and, or, or not? I think there’s also sometimes something else that happens is I’ve seen, like, you know, because of all the feedback and maybe concerns about the risk of a new feature or something that the solution that the team is testing out, maybe initially started out with this bold idea that might actually become more and more narrowed down to reduce risk.
Jeannie Yang (19:55):
And then that first version that goes out doesn’t actually… couldn’t… So they’re trying to address the feedback on the, making it less and less risky or less. And the, actually the future that goes out that that first version to test is it’s actually maybe not seeing that initial vision or impact. I think that’s the other part of it as well. Where the team tries to de-risk it as much as possible based all the concerns to try to address it, to get and get it out. I think that one is, is also very challenging and it’s, it’s that, that requires like Katherine said, you know, kind of communicating, what are we trying to do? What should we expect from the outcome right now, managing that, that, that first version is not going to be the silver bullet, but also it shouldn’t be like a, a misfire it’s like, a complete like not, but, but where are we that that’s the balance? I think.
Katherine Fischer (20:44):
I couldn’t agree more. And I’m thinking about experience of a two sided in marketplace. Like you are always balancing both sides and it’s something we definitely struggled with a bit at 1st Dibs, right. Where we’d want to do something really aggressive, but you have suppliers on the other side and you can’t do something that makes them mad, right? Like you were, you’re relying on them for their supply, revenue, et cetera. Right? So you still, you have to be, you have to make sure the product works for them. But there’s always that push and pull when you have two sides kind of working in opposition. And so we absolutely, had, you know, just the challenge of things, getting a little watered down, right? This is our big lofty goal. and then it’s like, oh, well, will they think about this? Will this cause churn here, will this do this?
Katherine Fischer (21:31):
And, it really took, I would say just some very honestly strong leadership, for people to go back, like we said, and say, what were our goals? And we could, we could go this route, but it might take us a lot longer to figure this out and really sort of have some moments with the team to say, really, how risky is this? Or can we test this in a more controlled way? So we still reduce some of that risk or step into it, but we’re still being aggressive and not having a totally watered down approach. Because we definitely had some scenarios where something we were trying to do took way too long because we, we were just, you know, we weren’t, we were too risk averse for some things and it’s, it’s a challenging conversation. Absolutely.
Anish Shah (22:16):
And I wonder whether a lot of that is via the evolution of an organization as well. You mentioned people being more risk averse and you know, Katherine, you’ve been in organizations that have obviously grown massively over time. And you know, is it just natural that, and it, and is a positive thing because when you’re larger, you should think through every decision way more and have a few more checks and balances or no, you still kind of need to be innovative to compete. And maybe that comes with, you know, removing some of the checks and balances and, and going a little bit faster here or there.
Katherine Fischer (22:48):
Well, and I thought it was interesting, you said about the, the stage of the company, because there were times earlier on where we, we relied, we had a smaller pool of suppliers, so we relied on them more. And so again, if you make them mad or they churn, it has more impact on your business where later on, they rely more on you. So you just have more frankly control in the marketplace and you can, you’re not as worried about turn. If some people turn, you thought a bunch of other suppliers and it’s not as big of a deal. So, but like you said, also your later stage or public company, there are other things that you do have to think about too. So, yeah, it just depends.
Anish Shah (23:31):
Makes a lot of sense. And is there room in, in like much, much, much later stage companies or even public companies of like, okay, this team over here is sort of just going to do things that are a little bit faster, a little bit crazier. But, and we need that to sort of be innovative versus some of the upstarts who are kind of coming into these spaces, but you know, how do we also, de-risk some of the things they’re going to do, so it’s not sort of derailing us at the stage or making us look in a certain way that we don’t want to look to either investors or the public or something like that. You know, does that come from having to buy a company almost, that’s doing something completely like maybe in, in your space, but a little bit different, let them operate autonomously or bring them into this broader kind of like, structure, because you know, you can kind of get on a path of like just going through a lot of the roadmap that was already there when a lot of things come in that are new in the market or there’s more competition or new types of technologies that are out there.
Anish Shah (24:32):
Are there some interesting things, ways to sort of address that? Maybe that’s just going agile a lot more, versus versus these lengthy plans, but I’m curious if you sort of face that and been like, wow, okay, well the, the industry’s moving faster than, than we are. So here’s how we’re sort of like addressing it and, and maybe difficult cause I’m asking, because I don’t have the answer. I’m very curious if any of you do?
Lucy Huang (24:57):
I can share a couple of anecdotes and then I’m super curious what, like Katherine and Jeannie you’ve done. So I think there’s two levels of it. If we were to break it down, one is I would say at the leadership level conversation and then the second piece is like this operational part with the whole being agile to de-risk things. So the first part in terms of being at the leadership level, I think the conversation is like as a leadership, could we have intellectual honesty in terms of where we stand as a business? So like a Series A business is very different from a public company. So as Series A and I, I, the way I, I have educated or yeah, I’ll just use the word educated because we all educate each other different functional, functional leads, educate each other on different things.
Lucy Huang (25:38):
So the way I’ve educated, this is like, Hey, look at it as your like investment portfolio, when you’re 20 years old, you can be super aggressive. That’s your like seed stage. Everything is just like growing. And then, when you’re a little bit later, right, when you get into your forties and fifties, that’s when you’re a more mature company, like where are we? Right. Because you have more to lose right now and your risk level does change. And it is sometimes I’ve seen like having done a couple of the growth stage companies. I could see folks like it’s also organizationally, like you’re also evolving over time. So folks who have been there for like six or seven years, they, you know, just have a, it’s like, well, where are we right now? Can we, can we do that type? So, just calling it out in terms of where we are as a stage of company, what’s our risk tolerance level.
Lucy Huang (26:19):
And sometimes to everybody’s point, it’s like, it’s, it’s a little bit of a compromise even on the leadership team in terms of what, what risk tolerance level is. And then I do, I am very adamant in terms of carving out that one piece, at least for innovation, whether it be a couple of squats for innovation, because you, you have to, every company has two public companies also are innovating. And then the way that I do talk about this is like, think about it. I use money analogy a lot, which is like, if you’re investing, you’re actually losing money because there’s inflation going on. So I use these, I try to educate by analogy that analogies that everybody can understand. And if you’re thinking about this whole business as a way to invest and product, that’s your investment areas, we should be investing in something.
Lucy Huang (26:57):
And then you can show tactically, you can show competitor analysis, like folks in the ecosystem, where are they investing? Not to say like you run after what they’re investing, but at least just have some of that risk appetite. So I think that’s at the leadership level. And then in terms of like at an operational level, I think a part of it is like when we talk about innovation, I think what’s scary in terms of being risky is like, well, what are we innovating? I think that’s like sometimes as humans, it’s like, it seems so uncertain. Like what are we innovating towards? So I would say that’s where the product discipline does come in in the sense of customer research and some of the tactics we have used, I have used at different companies sometimes it’s like showing that vision, like that’s what product designers are amazing at, which is like, just show me a wire frame of like, what could this look like and what, like, what are we trying to do? Like a picture explains a thousand words. So that’s another way if you will to de-risk to communicate. Thank you. And then, the second piece around it is, just everything that Katherine and and Jeannie have been talking about, which is like that being more agile so that it doesn’t seem like an investment doesn’t see any return for like a year, but break it down. Super curious. Like what other folks have done?
Anish Shah (28:02):
Well, I just really want to spike what, what you mentioned about taking the time to build like a very, very, very basic wire frame and visual of, of what something could end up being, because reading a PR D or a product requirements doc, did I get this right product requirement, doc, can be, can be pretty boring and uninspiring. And also like looking at a PowerPoint deck can be pretty, pretty uninspiring. So yeah, I like that idea of taking the extra day or two to put together a wire frame with the designers. You can, you can wow people a little bit with your vision versus just documentation.
Katherine Fischer (28:35):
I mean, I think to piggyback off of what, Lucy said a hundred percent agree on the sort of the portfolio concept, you know, at 1st Dibs is when we’d go through planning cycles, we’d really talk about sort of the big projects and we would rate them on impact. Right. You know, what is this going to be for the bottom line, but then also our confidence level as well. So we would have some things that were brand new, you know, again, risky. Right? But we said, if we can do this, right, this could be a big upside. Right. And so, you know, as the leadership team would try to, you know, there be maybe one or two of those, right? Okay. Let’s make sure we’re clear on how much we want to invest. Is it one scrum team PM, et cetera, for this thing kind of depends right on what it is.
Katherine Fischer (29:21):
And then also making sure, you know, we still had our core right. Where it’s like you have these teams that can iterate. and it’s so much more clear because those products are built, right. You kind of have abetter sense right. If like, okay, you can increase this by 20%. You can do X, Y, and Z, and those are reasonable goals and that will net that. So then at the end of the day, our finance team felt, you know, I think reasonably comfortable with, okay, we feel really confident. We can probably hit these things, this other stuff unclear, but we should at least spend some time on it and, and try to invest and, and sort of go from there. So absolutely sort of a portfolio concept, is, is really helpful.
Anish Shah (30:03):
That is really great. Thanks for that. Let’s jump to the next one. That’s another very lofty question. And don’t feel like you have to think of only one thing. And, and one thing, that’s interesting about all, all three of you, for, is that all three of you started in your career outside of product eventually started, as a product manager, I think Katherine for you was sales and you went into it, right? And then Jeannie was engineering and then, Lucy was, finance and then moved your way into it. And then, you know, V2 or V3 is like moved into leadership and, and executive level roles. So I don’t know if it, if it’s sort of stage dependent to think about what was defining in terms of pre-product then product then executive, if you want to even think of it that way, but if there were any sort of experiences that, you know, were pretty interesting to call out?
Katherine Fischer (31:11):
I feel like I’m talking a lot, but I’m happy to answer.
Anish Shah (31:13):
Everything you’re saying is smart. So..
Katherine Fischer (31:15):
Okay. I just like all I’m happy to, for me when I, I was thinking, thinking about this last night in terms of the experience that was most defining for me, and I would say it was working at an organization that was, very, invested in product and product had a really good, had a big say in strategy, and working for someone who had a lot of product knowledge and had done product for a long time. So sort of backing that up or going back in time, like, Anish said I started in sales, for Seamless an online food ordering company, was really growth stage early on. And for several years, even once I got into product, you know, I was reporting into CTOs, CEOs, someone that was Head of Strategy. Right. And they were all incredibly smart and great people and I learned a ton.
Katherine Fischer (32:14):
But I would say as you, it was just a different trajectory of growth to report to someone who had done product and had really focused on product. You know, my boss many years, you know, she came from Silicon Valley, and sort of grew up in product. Right. And so just learning from someone like that and being an organization, our CEO, was a former product person. Right. And that just, I think you can just the growth you get in your maturity of, developing products. I really just saw that, you know, shift dramatically. So I guess my advice to someone who’s earlier on their career is it’s fantastic to work for organizations that are, maybe don’t, maybe they don’t have a big product team, and they’re really small, they’re sharp and they’re scrappy. But think about, again, your portfolio, right? Of, you know, maybe thinking about an opportunity to work at a place with some more seasoned product people, and colleagues, to learn from. And I think that’s a really a really good mix. And there’s a lot more of that nowadays than there were 10 years ago. So that’s good.
Anish Shah (33:22):
Absolutely. Before this event started, we were all connecting how product is given a much, a much higher seat of the table now, or before people maybe didn’t realize the value of product 10 to 15 years ago. So that’s great that someone doesn’t have to join the function and then have to fight for why, why their existence should even be there, Jeannie or, or Lucy, any thoughts from your end in terms of sort of a defining experiences or events. I know this is a pretty lofty question. So, yeah, definitely cognizant of that.
Jeannie Yang (33:53):
I’ll I’ll share what I actually thought it was going to be the end of my product career. I was,
Anish Shah (33:59):
It already sounds fun.
Jeannie Yang (34:01):
As I was at, at a startup and it was sort of at the sort of first one we’ve been working on project for nine months and with a team was super fun, was actually really fun, exploring stuff in technology with AR and music and everything. And, but we’ve been working on it for nine months. So it’s been constantly delayed, throughout the year. And we were going from a board saying a vision. And then I realized, you know, that December board, prepared for that December board meeting, I could not go up in front again and say, this is a vision strategy. We were off the, we were we’re going off the rails and it’s really time to, kill the project. We didn’t achieve our goals and we had to make that hard decision. And, and, yeah, I honestly thought it was going to be end in my product career because that was it.
Jeannie Yang (34:46):
That was time to go back to engineering possibly. And, realizing kind of having that, that conversation with the CEO on the board and a team who then really said, okay, then what do you want to do? I mean, really giving me and the team that chance we went back to the drawing board. But I think the tough part was like, we had invested so much time. It was really hard to like go, it was really fun. Everybody was having fun. And what I realized is that I, myself lost sight of the vision, like really getting into the fun of building things, kind of all this cool tech stuff that we could do and lost sight of that. And maybe the biggest learning was that, you know, as the product manager or we were very small, so I wouldn’t say leader or anything at that point.
Jeannie Yang (35:24):
You know, if you, if I, or you yourself don’t believe in a vision and, and then you can’t really lead it. And, and what’s what was really important is really seeing the diamond in rough, the projects. And, and so kind of what, where are we going and really, really keeping track of that and sharing that with the team, because we were just kind of having, having fun, but it was like, and having to go through again, and then just realizing that, you know, maybe as a product leader, you don’t always have that luxury. You want the team to have fun, but you may have sometimes had to make a hard decision. I’m not saying this very well, but it was a very defining moment, because like I said, I, I really honestly thought it was time to call in a product career. They were going to be like, well, okay, thanks for your services. And this is time to… So, but obviously the the afterwards it’s like, well, what, what do we do now? That was also a very, defining moment, what we learned and when we came through from that. But that was the, I think having to make that decision or having to even raise that and confront that was really, I was scared to death.
Anish Shah (36:34):
So that’s fascinating. And then, and then, and you know, so when you went through that, that experience, what sort of kept you on the path or was it just having good leaders above you? Who sort believed in you to do the next to the next thing?
Jeannie Yang (36:44):
Yeah, I think it was a good leaders, a good board, good team. Because honestly I thought, you know, I was really brilliant. Like I failed time to let me go and they I’m so sorry kind of situation. And then they were like, well, okay, well what are you going to do next? And get the team going kind of situation. And just like really, so what did you really believe in and then talked to the team. So it was, I was really fortunate to have great leaders, great support, great team, but you know, I, I think maybe part of it is really just, having that open, honest conversation, know that your team has your back. It may sometimes feel really alone. Maybe right. That everything’s on you. But honestly I did not go into it thinking and then to be honest, unusual, I was like, what really? I didn’t have, I just stopped. I didn’t know what to, I was like, so kind of very quickly, yeah, I did not plan that I had to solve really. It was just like, I’m sorry I failed. This is a, but then that, yeah, it was really, I, I credited the team, the leadership at that time to, I think, give me another chance maybe or give us another chance.
Anish Shah (37:50):
That’s wonderful. And I’d imagine like, as you progressed in your career, you’re able to take those bumps a little bit more smoothly, right. But that was maybe one of the earliest or first times you sort of went through through something like that and thought the world was going to fall apart and everything was going to fall apart. And it ended up being fun.
Jeannie Yang (38:09):
That fun to have to kill a project, especially when its the best is so much in it, across the company and the team. And what I’ve learned is you have to just constantly check in on that right path and, and the earlier you can make that decision and clarify about expectations or where, whether it’s the better, obviously it’s never, ever fun. It’s never ever, but that was a very, I would say defining experience. Yeah.
Anish Shah (38:35):
Yeah, No, it sounds like it, and it’s great that you sort of continued on the path and then sort of be like, well, no I’m or even beat yourself up to the point of like long term, like, well maybe I’m just not a great product manager sort of like, well that’s things work out, things don’t work out. So that’s great.
Jeannie Yang (38:52):
So, but no doubt your team is behind you, but also I think just, you have to believe in a vision because we just got into the fun of it, but maybe was like, wait, where are we going? So.
Anish Shah (39:01):
That’s fair. So Lucy, did you have any thoughts?
Lucy Huang (39:05):
Sure. Yeah, but Jeannie, I, I think that, yeah, to your point, I think the fun of it is also important. Right. Because it’s also the day to day, but yes, the vision the business side of things too. Sorry. So yeah, in terms of, I was thinking, I was thinking about this, which is I’ll cheat and say just like two real quick ones. The first one was I spent about five years SCB insight. So I was there when the team was like around $8 million in ARR and I left when it was like around like $75, so good, really good five years of growth. And through those five years, I would say it was like very defining five years because, and some folks who are trying, like getting into product management or one the first or second product management roles, is I would say like stay nimble because within those five years when I was growing with the team, I did like almost every type of product management, some types I know I’m just not good at so immediately I hired for, I hired for that role, but it’s like everything from like growth product management to like working with data science, to like feature PM.
Lucy Huang (40:00):
But I would say like if you’re willing to stay nimble and if you have that opportunity with a growth stage company, like I’m super thankful for it because I think now I’m able to empathize with different types of folks, on the team. So that’s like super defining experience. And then the other one that I’ll cheat, which is around, I also had, so I, I went into, a true startup as well, a similar to Jeannie and then we, we failed. So I think a part of it is I, I had thought about product. I was, I also thought about product as like, oh, this is like a new company. Like let’s think about the fun of it, but then it’s like, there’s really that business component to it. So having to pitch to investors that really changed the way or that really helped me hone in the way, in terms of like thinking about product, product that’s on investment. Like it, it, how long is it going to take? Like if something takes two years it’s is that a success versus something that takes six months? So now those two are super defining for me.
Anish Shah (40:51):
That was really great. And I think going back to one of the, the first things you mentioned in there that is, is heavily something that people who, who have progressed in their career learn eventually is also, you just happen to be good at certain things and happened to not be good at certain things. And I think my earlier bosses in my career really honed in on the things I wasn’t good at and tried to fix them instead of sort of like accentuating the things that I was much more talented at. And I learned later on in my career to, as you mentioned, Lucy higher for the things I’m not good at and really triple down on the things that I am. I think, I think that’s also a lesson for people as they grow. It’s it’s not, it’s not just the idea that you’re good and bad at things.
Anish Shah (41:32):
It’s really take the time to think about what and ask yourself and put yourself in situations to learn what exactly are you good at? And what exactly are you not the greatest at? And then find, find other people to partner with who are good at the areas that, that you’re not, I think a lot of people are forced to cover up the things that they’re not great at because they’re worried it’s going to stunt their career or their boss is going to judge them poorly. And you know, those, those just, aren’t going to be great environments for you long term anyways, because you’re doing things you’re, trying to cover up the areas and you’re trying to put time into things that you’re just not the greatest at. So, and I, I think that in itself is a wonderful lesson for people across all functions, you know, figure yourself out. So thanks for that Lucy. Jump to the next one.
Anish Shah (42:22):
This one’s really interesting. I think, all of you touched upon this at, at different points, but yeah, I mean all of you are the are fundamentally the product leaders of your, of your organizations and you know, really should be in charge of the, of the roadmap, the vision, et cetera, obviously with buy in from other stakeholders. But what do you do when you have the, the vision in your head and you’ve documented, you’ve got bought it buy in and then someone who’s above you in the organization walks in and says, wait, wait, just switch what you’re doing, because this is kind of what I’m thinking now. How do you, how do you stop from, from everything being derailed or, or all decisions just being based on whatever the most senior person in the room says?
Jeannie Yang (43:10):
This is probably really. I don’t have a great answer. And it’s a tough one. The key word there is probably opinion and I think I tried to confirm, someone said, you know, is this is this one person’s opinion? And maybe having that conversation with the person, is this a recommendation? So we should really take what is trying to understand what is the context behind that and really evaluate, or is this actual mandate? First and so I think clarifying that, is probably the, the, and also is, is probably first like the main thing, like when we hear like the high, the most senior person really understand what they’re saying, having that routine. But also I think that the other key word here is cycle the development cycle. Really understand maybe point back to what Katherine brought up earlier of what phases of the project cycle and really defining that and actually sharing that at each of those points in your development cycle, you don’t want to get to right before release for that person to have seen what’s going on.
Jeannie Yang (44:09):
And so how do you really even break down the project into its project phase the cycle, making sure you’re getting that check in every milestone in that development cycle. So maybe earlier on that opinion could be a strong recommendation or even mandate could build in, but towards the end now is starting to become, oh, this is an opinion based on you’re now in development iteration versus exploration. I am planning phases. So I think those are the two keywords, but , that’s, it’s difficult. I have to watch myself oftentimes and tell my team just one person’s opinion. I’m just sharing my feedback.
Anish Shah (44:44):
No absolutely. And I like the fact that you mentioned communication across the board and on where things are. So you’re giving someone, you know, instead of one point at the very end of the cycle to put in their opinion, like, okay, here’s eight different points cause I’m keeping you in the loop throughout all of that. And so don’t switch everything up point at meeting number eight of eight, you know, if you want to switch it up, make it in, make it in like meeting one of eight versus, or meeting two of eight. So that makes a lot of sense.
Lucy Huang (45:14):
So one thing I also shared this is way easier said than done, which is if as, as product leaders, if there’s a way to set up the culture, I think about it as the racy model, which is like, who has the final say here? because if you don’t define that, sometimes it is the highest paid person’s opinion. So, for product, for product teams to be empowered. I think what I do try to do to various levels of success is, is actually actually educate again, educate the rest of the organization. I think about how do we set up the product development team for success. A part of it is defining roles and responsibilities. So otherwise the whole like feature team versus actual product management team. So, it’s like to say that, Hey, like if we truly want to be a tech company, you know, there are some decision making points here. We will listen to every, the key people will be consulted, but then the actual product decision, should come from the product manager. And then of course it’s the product manager’s responsibility to articulate like how that decision is being made. But I do, I do kind of how, how do you kind of control or how do you manage that? I would say manage that sometimes that polarity of the highest pay person is to define a bit of that framework for the organization in terms of how decisions are made.
Anish Shah (46:26):
That’s a really great point. It, it isn’t necessary just about the decision it’s about the framework that leads to it. And maybe the going back to the earlier questions, the overall goals and metrics of north stars that you’re setting for yourself and the leading back end does this actually hit some of those north stars versus is this just a cool idea? Are you chasing a new trend? So that, that that’s really interesting there. And Jeannie also made a good point. Sometimes you’re on the other side of that and you are the most senior person in the room and you come up with very quick ideas and you know, you have to almost check yourself. So I think this can also be reversed. And as all of you now are fundamentally the most senior folks in the product org, you know, how do you check yourself that you’re not just sort of like walking into the room and, and shifting things around based on your own intuition and opinions.
Anish Shah (47:10):
And so, yeah, it’s difficult and I’ve definitely shifted people around in circles and then realized I was wrong later on. So it’s it, it’s a tough one. I think, I think Jeannie, you, you mentioned that you kind of have to let people know that like to push back on you and, you know, give their thoughts. And I think that’s just kind of the best thing that you could do. Just sort of say, well, Hey, I’m not a hundred percent sure about this, but you know, this feels right, but I want to hear all of your opinions and I want, I want this to be something that’s a conversation and you could very well be wrong here. So let me, let me hear all the drawbacks and all of that. So yeah, this is definitely two-sided here.
Katherine Fischer (47:46):
I mean, I think what I’ve found is, particularly when I’m working with product teams, like product teams, that report to me and in meetings with like the scrum team, the engineers and the designers, I can tell that sometimes they don’t feel at like, as they just don’t feel quite as comfortable pushing back. You know, there’s just a variety of personalities and it really depends on the team. So like Jeannie suggested I’ve really had to be very explicit, right. When I’m having those conversations and saying, you know, they’ll say something, I’ll be like, okay, I don’t totally agree. Here’s why, blah, blah, blah. But then saying someone debate me. Like I really want to have a debate about this, or what am I missing or something like that. Like, I really would love to, hash this out because I only have a high level understanding and you guys are in the nitty gritty and really reinforce that they are the ones that are in the day to day. They probably see all of the nitty gritty metrics, and understand the architecture and all of that. So just using that, that language with people, I think over time it makes the team more comfortable. You know, anyone from like junior members, very junior members as a team, you know, wanting and feeling comfortable and to speak up, if, or like actually really missing this other point here. So because you can’t understand all of that once you get to a certain level.
Anish Shah (49:09):
It’s almost like earlier we talked, we started this call about how do you level people up internally, who might be reporting to you and like, you know, promotions is one thing. If only there was like a metric of like how often someone corrects you, like on a weekly basis that that could be a really fun metric to, to try to track. So, and then that’s how, you know, that someone has grown really, really phenomenally when they’re, when they’re sort of out pacing you and yeah, you can go and focus on other things. The next one. What change do you envision for product leadership? Let’s jump with the next one.
Anish Shah (50:01):
This is actually a great one. I think all of you’re talking about the transition from jumping into product when you first started and like where you, who tried to learn whether it’s books or meetups and all of that. It seems like you you’ve all sort of tried different things. So what has actually hit in terms of this has taught me more about product, you know, whether it’s going, talking to people doing one on one chats, whether people in industry podcasts, books, communities, would love to hear kind of how your growth has happened and also things maybe you tried and didn’t really, you know, get you is sort of knowledgeable, but maybe you thought it would?
Jeannie Yang (50:46):
Well, no, no, no real thing. That’s where, but I, I think actually talking to people, not in tech, this is very difficult or not directly related to, a specific product development has been really helpful. Just like completely different, professions or industries of how they approach it. Kind of there’s, there’s always like similarities in an online way of how things work. Right? So, that I always find really, really interesting, but it’s, it’s difficult to do, especially, I’m in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, but, you know, finding people in completely different professionals just give you different perspective. And so the problem spaces are in terms of organization, how people work together, very similar still.
Anish Shah (51:29):
That’s super interesting that you’ve actually learned how to be a better product leader from people outside of your, your specific function. Because oftentimes when people are networking, I find that they very much are just like, I want someone who’s been at these certain areas that are similar to mine in certain companies that are similar to mine. So I like that you actually take inspiration and knowledge from other or reaching professions.
Katherine Fischer (51:53):
And I think along those same lines, our team has tried to bring in basically just like people from our network on a, we tried, we were trying to do on a regular basis, but like it could be people on product, but to Jeannie’s point, it was someone who was maybe like founders were always really interesting to, you know, speak with whether they failed, whether they did well, just like learning from their experiences. And, you know, even if small team, you look at your, your network of people, like, I’m sure you can find many people, friends and old colleagues, who’ve done interesting things. And, you know, it was always great to bring them in, with the team and sort of have just a small discussion and, keep it super casual. And I found those to be just really inspiring conversations. And sometimes they did get, you know, they’re, they’re in depth and they’re really specific and to product, but sometimes they’re just really interesting conversations about something that’s just a little bit tangential, but, that I’ve always found that really inspiring and just helpful, cause it is a small, small group type conversation. So you can really, you know, chat about things, which is nice.
Anish Shah (53:01):
That’s great. I can speak a little bit to it. I think what’s been hit or miss for me has been, has been blogs or one to many communications because I feel like they, tend to be edited to make someone or some organization maybe look a little better than they really are. But when I’ve actually talked to people who either work at those organizations or the actual authors of these blogs, I’m able to get a little bit of a of an actual story of what actually went right or went wrong. So where, where my learning curve has bumped up was getting, you know, 30 minute coffees or 30 minute Zooms with people who are just generally interesting and have done interesting things, regardless of whether it’s in my function and the real story, like I really would in the first five minutes, try to get, okay, tell me the real story, what actually worked, what didn’t work, you know, what wasn’t written, and that’s where it gets to pretty fun because I’m able to utilize those learnings where they’re definitely keeping a lot of those, those pieces of knowledge outside of their one to many communications.
Anish Shah (54:07):
Cool. Any other kind of areas for inspirational learnings or certain books that you think have been like this kind of taught me a good amount about product management and got me on the right path or communities or anything like that.
Lucy Huang (54:22):
I can share any one is interested, I can share a list of who I follow and my team, this is credit to the team. There’s like a whole product resource library in terms of who to follow for what it’s a pretty robust list. For me as a product leader, I would have to double down on what Jeannie and Katherine said, which is, it’s actually more helpful to talk to leaders in CEOs, founders, leaders in other functional areas, because yeah, as a product leader, it’s, it’s assuming you have most of the product chops by now. And a lot of it is how do you become a better leader? A lot of the times.
Anish Shah (54:56):
That’s a great point, especially when you’re at your level, your goal is becoming great leader, not just learning the very basics of product management anymore. So, so that’s wonderful. Do we have any more questions?
Jeannie Yang (55:08):
There’s some in a Q and A that may, oh, that may be good to…
Anish Shah (55:15):
From mark, what’s your recommendation on figuring out if, maybe, what the hippo is asking for is an opinion versus a versus a mandate.
Jeannie Yang (55:31):
I think that , that, one’s definitely one of the things you have to have that conversation, get that alignment and kind of going through and really just understanding, trying, I think most of the times also trying to really find out why, like, ask, well, why is this so important to really understand? Because oftentimes I find that even I myself or the leaders they’re thinking of something else or what comes out as a solution or an idea and, but really what’s the concern worry is what you try to. So what questions or what concerns for that? And I think that’s the, the main thing too. At least even I, myself, I had to be like, wait, what? I am just kind of moving so fast coming out with that solution and trying to what the reason behind it, is it?
Anish Shah (56:14):
Yeah, a really talented person I used to work with would, would come back and just ask, when I would have, you know, requests that would be all over the place. What is your actual goal? You know, what are you looking for with it? Not, not what do you, not what the executable portion is, but what is the actual goal sort of made the conversation be a little bit more reframed? And I think that helps kinda understand whether something’s a mandate versus a, an opinion. And I think we talked a little bit with, with the anecdotes of, of defining relevance, but, were there some initial challenges or, and if so, what were they when you first transitioned from other functional areas to, to product management? I think you talked a little bit about, you know, learning the technical side and the engineering side, Lucy, but, if there were any other kind of like hurdles that were very, very much present when you’re first starting off.
Katherine Fischer (57:06):
And I think for me, the one that stands out is years ago, getting feedback from someone I was just starting to manage someone was my first time managing, with no training whatsoever, obviously, and getting feedback that I was micromanaging them. And I was, you know, I, I was really quickly went for, you know, I was an individual contributor and I kind of just ran with that. Right. So it was honestly, you know, it took me like 24 hours to kind of absorb it and then it wound up being just a new, a fantastic conversation and being able to go back to that person the next day and say, I really appreciated that feedback. And I knew I could just, all right, I could change a lot of things that I was doing. And it really changed my approach to managing product managers, because PMs, they want autonomy, they want to, solve their own problems. Like they don’t want to be micromanaged and you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t need to. So just in terms of how you, you know, give them enough, give them guidance and be someone to, you know, be a mentor and someone that they can, debate with, but you’re not managing their day to day. Right. so that I think was just a, you know, an early bump when going from being an IC to managing someone and some very talented people that could definitely do their jobs.
Anish Shah (58:26):
Which is a great bump to, to kind of get over and learn how to improve on. Cool. I think we’re, I think we’re here at time, so I want to definitely thank you, Katherine. Definitely want to thank you, Jeannie and Lucy, who just had to hop and jump into the next thing I’ll thank her separately, but this is a really great event. I think for a lot of folks who are trying to get to your levels, they were able to take a take a lot away. so thank you both.
Jeannie Yang (58:48):
Thank you. Anish and Kayci for setting this up and thanks Katherine and Lucy. It was great learning for me as well. So it’s fantastic.
Kayci Baldwin (58:56):
This was amazing. Thank you both for being here and yes, I’m sorry that, Lucy had to hop, but thank you everyone for attending. This was such a meaningful, conversation. I know I learned a ton. We’ll definitely send out the playback and thank you all for joining us.
Katherine Fischer (59:13):
Kayci Baldwin (59:15):